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This is where you can stay up to date on whats happening here at looperman.com. When anything new is added to the site youll find details here.
If people dont read whats there to help them then its not really my problem but theirs. This is how files get suspended, people get banned, forum posts get deleted etc. The loops section does not have as many issues these days and that is down to how its organised and the guides that are in place. There is still room for improvement there too but thats off topic. The forums also has its own issues and thats being dealt with in another thread.
There is no way of preventing problems that arise from people who dont RFTM :)
The idea is to make life easier for all those that do.
The main issue for now is ...
would the following two options be enough ?
1 - Free to use both commercial & non-commercial
2 - Free to use non-commercial / commercial licence required
Also, would you suggest any other fields to add to the upload form to help either organise the acapellas or to get across any information that is not already listed so that the description field can return to be used to actually describe the file itself.
First I meant acapellas and not loops and secondly, recently the website Flickr has revoked CC licenses on material that their clients submitted over the years that they thought would have been protected under CC. Remember, CC licenses are supposed to be irrevocable but it can be challenged and overturned. Most CC disputes end up in court anyways. Looperman.com can and would be named as a co-defendant in acapella disputes from here. The fact that you named two types of licenses Shan means absolutely nothing when I am the original content owner, I am sorry to say that. I have the right to change my acapella terms to one of the other license levels without your consent because it is my right to do so as the original content owner. The rights of the content owner is primary over anything else and anyone else including this site if you flip to CC. You would basically be handing over a piece of this site to an unproven system. If you decided to go with CC, get a lawyer who can help you fill those gaps. No one should ever download an acapella from this site if you go with CC, no one. The risk to them of the content owner changing the terms of their CC acapella is a tremendous risk to them. CC is also completely void in a few countries as well.
Oh yeah, the reason why your CC license would not hold up Shan is that this website must become a Creative Commons official certifying authority first. At such point you could legally place conditions that prevents members from changing terms of their CC acapellas. It is a bit of process for websites to become Creative Commons certified and that is because to a lesser extent you would become an extension of the CC organisation. Are you willing to do that? But then and only then it would it be safe for people to download CC acapellas from here without the fear of changing terms.
Maybe it's easier to take only
- Free to use non-commercial / commercial license required
and tell anyone who upload an accapella that he can only prevent further use by deleting the accapellas.
And tell all downloader that they only have the right to use it non commercial.
So you can make a popup window and write there in big letters
Download - FOR NON COMMERCIAL USE ONLY
For commercial use, contact the artist for a licence
What a load of absolute legalese rubbish, is this litigious 101 or what, I'd keep the acapella description pages as they are, clear cut and simple but totally ban spamming, it's also indicative of the prima donna position that many singers adopt unfortunately.
Call it what you want but this is why the gleefully ignorant shall perish under the weight of their stupidity. The man ask for the facts and it is not always pretty. The informed seems to always be two steps ahead of those who do not educate themselves. You cannot not jump into something without fully understanding the ramifications of ones actions that could potentially affect thousands of others. That would be reckless and irresponsible.
Ok Joe upload an acapella and I'll for want of a better word use it without your permission, ok hotshot now try and sue me, lets see how far you actually get in the process, it'll become apparent very quickly that this is all just subjective hot air, you can dream of getting a team of lawyers to serve any number of demands on me which I'll simply ignore and in the meantime you'll be just burning a hole in your pocket, get rational man deal with what can and cannot actually happen and not some abstract construct you've read on a cereal packet.
You don't have to sue anybody, you just have to contact the distributors. If they don't respond contact the platform (ie.Beatportt, itunes, etc) You only need to sue if they ignore the take down and don't present a contract. THEN. You only need to sue if the unauthorized track is making money, and if it is, you can probably find a lawyer to work pro bono. If the track is making no money, but it is stolen there is really no reason to sue, just inform them of infringement. Two broke artists suing each other is a pretty sad.
I deal with this all the time. The reputable distributors typically don't want to ruin their company's credibility by screwing artists over. You are doing them a favor when you tell them that you are the actual owner of the track they promote because the artist that signed with them, without your permission was breaking the law and tricking the label.
-For me the CC option could be nice if it wasn't mandatory. maybe Shan could contact Newgrounds and ask them how it works for them. Maybe it works great, I don't know.
-I think in the two basic sorting search options it should be included that artists receive credit in the songtitle. "DJ Ocean - Whalefarts ft. thisguysvocals"
I think it would be great if there was a link to a Master Use blank generic contract too. That's basically the contract the DJ's are missing. Nearly every time I contact and get a contract, they make it up like I'm signing exclusively with the label, which makes no sense. It's master use(the vocal sample) with a percentage and possibly a reasonable advance against the royalties.
Sorry to double post, but I think the non-commercial remixes are very valuable. They are a learning tool for the person who remixes with them. They are a learning tool for the artist to hear the reinterpretation. They are the most pleasant for of artistic flattery ever. It's like finding out a fan of your band is in a cover band of your music. That's awesome. Even the non-professional remixes are cool. You don't have to be a pro football player to enjoy throwing a ball around. And a pro player can enjoy a casual game as well.
In short, non commercial is WAY more than just promotion for a commercial product, and even if it was only that, it would be promoting and helping all parties. So that would be OK by me. That's why credits are so important. Personally I like to imagine that I am contributing to the culture of music by providing non-commercial use for budding musicians and producers. It's not like I make money with music, the profits don't even cover yearly gear costs.
@VirginiaSlimm exactly! someone that actually gets it for the real world situation...that's the best summation on this entire topic and hopefully the one that will have the most influence and not some half baked legal rhetoric.
Not to be a forum hog... But, seeing as how so many shady DJ's farm looperman for Acapellas and instrumentals. I would like to add this.
Also I know Shan has been very clear about not wanting to get into licensing and etc.
-Consider that looperman already has people coming to site and downloading regularly. If looperman had some automated fair exclusive licensing contract for Acapella uploaders with percentages and guidelines for granting master use licenses through looperman, I would probably sign exclusively and stop uploading elsewhere.
Just putting that out, because I trust this site more than most labels I've encountered, and many DJ's misuse music downloaded from here already. All that's really missing IMO is a way to monetize it fairly.
@looperman to be honest, if I never reposted some songs I'd never get some amazing deals, so I can't say that I'm not glad I didn't. However, I do understand your point. Please add a system where people can subscribe to receive notifications when new acapellas are posted. This eliminates the guessing game on the uploaders point (Aka my point)
I really like what @VirginiaSlimm is saying in terms of having the artist that downloads and uses the acapellas credit the uploader for exactly the same reasons he mentioned. Additionally, I find that the most difficult part of the process between people who do want to commercially use the vocals and the artists who upload them is in fact finding a fair way to monetize the exchange.
I've ran into the problem of people who want me to sign a contract they wrote up that gives them exclusive rights to the track and offers a percentage of the sales as compensation. I cannot provide exclusivity once the vocal has been uploaded, nor would I want to for the sheer fact of networking.
Ideally, I would like a safe place to upload vocals that provides me the protection from "thieves" but also offers the artists a choice with clear distinction for the terms in which they are allowed to use the content. For example, I have no problem with sharing and using peoples vocals non-commercially as long as credit is being given where it is due. If someone likes the vocals in my track, I want them to be able to easily find the person who made them and vice versa.
If there was a way to synchronize the uploading/sharing/monetizing of the acapellas built into the site for ease of use then I would also only upload to Looperman exclusively (like I pretty much already do) and would certainly expect and offer part of the percentages of the money made back to Looperman for all the effort and time spent on building such a feature.
I realize that might be completely unrealistic, but let me dream. I'll conclude by saying that if the site enforces that all acapellas be free to use both commercially and non commercially that at the very least I would remove some of the vocals and certainly upload less of them for the fear of having them stolen/misused. I would only upload the tracks that I wanted people to use freely (although I have always let people use my vocals for free, only asked for portions if you are wanting to sell it as well).
PS To help eliminate spammers on the acapella portion of the site, I do like what mike0112 said about having notifications or subscriptions when new content is released and/or maybe a "bump" button to help promote within the site the specific vocal you want at the time. (with limitations on frequency of use.) This is all just my two cents, however, and I humbly await to hear the decisions that are made!
How about you give the creators an option to upload their own licenses and their own conditions and when someone downloads an acapella it will come in a zip folder with the original creators terms and conditions? This will make it easier for people to choose what they want done and allow them to go into specifics with anything else. You can also have it so they only have to upload the license one time and it will be packaged with every acapella automatically.
If someone has already mentioned this, forgive me, as I didn't read all of the previous comments.
@modnex one reason against that is that for anyone wishing to use an acapella its simplest to have few set options rather then everyone making it up as they go along and then potentially changing their terms when it suits
Shan, I don't think there really is a way to setup terms since the content uploaded is not owned by the site. You could address link spamming by not allowing HTML in the description box and setting a character limit. Spam is difficult to address because putting a minimum time limit, for instance, could hurt the rate at which acapellas are uploaded for the site overall. All in all, there are too many legal issues the site could encounter when trying to manage content rights this way - just give the uploaders what they need to protect their works: a timestamp, and a symbol to state what conditions the uploader has for their upload that can't be changed for that acapella unless it is deleted. That way it will reset the timestamp for the new upload under the updated condition set by the user. Just shooting out ideas, of course.
@brado, owning the content does not come into it. Setting the terms at which someone can upload though can be set. html is already banned and there is a character limit. The site is not trying to be responsible for content rights. There is also a timestamp showing who downloaded what and when.
The vast majority of uploaders already state that files are ok for non commercial but commercial release requires some form of agreement. What Im trying to prevent is every upload coming with its own version of a very simple agreement along with an ever increasing amount of self promotion.
The only question at the moment is are these 2 options enough ?
I'm guessing it will be the standard cc by 3.0 licence for commercial use, and cc-nc 2.0 for non-commercial use?
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC-BY)
Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC 2.0)
A cc0 (public domain) option would be great as well, but I doubt many would release there.. and it's probably not a good idea to have anyway, as some might give away (nearly) all their rights if they choose that option by mistake, or they are unclear on what they're doing.
In a perfect world, you'd have all licensing options available to advanced users of looperman, including cc0 - you'd 1up soundcloud if that was the case.
The two options you've listed above are ideal though, keeping it simple, just like youtube does with their 2 licensing options (all rights reserved, & cc-by-3.0)
@tripcore, there is no plan to use creative commons, its only listed as an example. The two options I gave simply allow us to categorise acapellas into simple licence types in order to make finding and listing things simpler
Ok then, it might be a good idea to include required attribution to the original vocalist/artist, otherwise people won't be obliged to credit the original vocalist/artist
What would happen to the existing acapellas if someone searches for commercial/non-commercial? will they not appear, or be undefined, or show up if there's a search all option?
existing uploads will be merged into the system somehow either by the user or manually depending on what is in the existing description. More then likely by the original uploader. Anything not updated will not get as much exposure so it would be worth everyone making sure acapellas are updated.
Most people will want all theirs in one category or another so it will be a simple fix when the time comes
I like the two options myself.
It doesn't need to be too complicated but it would be better to have how the acapella can be used be a lot clear than it now.
These options have now been coded into the new version of the site (not yet released) . The two options are as mentioned previously
Anyone who has uploaded acapellas will be able to simply update the usage rights for all of their uploads in one click when the site is updated.
At a minimum, any acapella uploaded must be available to use Non Commercially. The usage rights option allows an acapella uploader the ability to state that the acapella may not be used commercially though. I would expect that anything that is available to use commercially too would get more exposure but its up to the uploader how they set things.
Any acapella that does not have that option set wont show in a search that specifies usage rights as an option.
To be clear, this does not change anything apart from how acapellas are categorised. I cant see how it will effect anyone adversely. It should just make things clearer for everyone and end the need to fill the description area with links and made up demands etc.
I may also add a place where an acapella uploader can state any extra information they wish to be made known. This could be a field like the about me section of your profile and mean that any extra info would only need to be entered once but be shown on all acapellas. Will have a think about that one though.
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Looper Time : 2019-01-17 04:45:54 | Version l-318