Posted in : Forum : Site News And Announcements
This is where you can stay up to date on whats happening here at looperman.com. When anything new is added to the site youll find details here.
The acapellas section seems to have become inundated with excessive self promotion. The description are becoming over loaded with links and the whole section is badly setup making it harder for people to understand how things can be used.
Some users have taken to posting the same things multiple times simply to gain more exposure which is obviously spam.
As there are no set licence options to chose from means anyone uploading is making it up as they go along and those that download find it hard to keep track of whats what.
Im currently working on an update of the whole site and the acapellas section is one thing that needs to change.
I propose a set of licence options that everyone must choose from when uploading. This will also allow those searching to filter out just the acapellas that fit with how they want to work.
I'm undecided on going down the https://wiki.creativecommons.org/ route but it may end up being the simplest way.
In its simplest form the options could be
1 - Free to use both commercial & non-commercial2 - Free to use non-commercial / commercial licence required
Posting anything that restricts use for non commercial is pretty much just advertising a commercial product.
What are your thoughts ?
I thought the forums were a mess until I just looked in the Acapella section (something I rarely if ever do) man the place is a total disaster area! The simplest solution will always be the best, so lets face facts, 99% of the spam is coming from one demographic and one genre and all the the self promotional links are headed towards one place, the solution is to prevent links being posted anywhere on the site apart from a member's profile page. As to the differentiation between commercial and non commercial usage rights, well here's your can of worms, again it has to be made as simple as possible, the loop section works so well because there's no issue, it's royalty free no questions asked, this should apply in my opinion to acapellas as well, but for reasons that escape me this isn't going to be the case, whatever you decide to do is going to be ignored by a certain percentage of users unless the upload process has a vacuum sealed agreement clause built into it...good luck Shan you're going to need it.
Here are my thoughts. I think you should also add a "download acapella check box option" to reaffirm the licensing terms when members download acapellas only. Many acapella download users may not fully understand their responsibilities when downloading acapellas from this site. Many rappers, singers, and spoken word performers have found unauthorized or improperly licensed songs with their vocals in those songs for sale on Tunecore, Spotify, and iTunes for example without the appropriate authorization or clearance from the acapella artist. This recommendation may help vocal artists here when they petition for a take down notice on other sites that features their vocals in those unauthorized songs for sale. Most external site admins will typically comply with take down requests of most stolen or improperly obtained media or material upon request as long as the person filing the complaint has some simple form of proof of ownership of said acapella. Acapella downloaders should be given a chance to agree or disagree to the terms of downloading and using acapellas from this site each time. By disagreeing the acapella download should not be granted. I think the rights of the acapella artist should not be taken for granted.
If this site moves to creative commons for vocals, I will remove mine from the site. It's a difficult thing to address but I do like JosephFunk's idea 100 percent, as having had to deal with pretty much every problem he listed as a vocalist on LM.
I like the idea of having a few simple options for vocalist to choose from. The licensing options would appear somewhere clearly next to the loop to clear up a lot of the spam in the description from making things difficult to understand.
I like JosephFunk's idea too, a "download acapella check box option." This could also prevent newcomers from misunderstanding the terms of the acapella.
A text limit on the descriptions would be nice. Maybe also put a separate box for 1 link max so there's no spam to any website.
As we track all downloads we could also possible have a link to licence file that is date stamped at the point of download in case the file is removed or the licence altered at a later stage.
Its important that anyone who uploads acapellas makes their thoughts clear at this stage as this will be happening in one way or another. Looking through the acapellas at the moment most demands do seem to fall into the two categories I mentioned previously
@bradosanz, if we were to go with creative commons what part of that would make you want to remove your acapellas ? Curious to hear your reasons.
Acapellas are the back-bone to this site, for without 'singers' we would all be lost in a sea of wonderful music!First off, i dont want to give away for 'FREE' my artistic expressions (As stated in my bio) to be used for whatever the user sees fit.I want to be compensated for my acapella/narration efforts accordingly and to give my work out in a 'creative commons' fashion onLooperman 'free' would be a gross miscarriage of fairness to all, especially in the Acapella genre.
I understand that it can be frustrating for music producers, but all they have to do is read the description of what the acapella/narration/etccan and cannot be used for and agree to it when downloading. Yes, a time stamp would be nice and would aleviate a lot of problems for Looperman down the road.
Hey, Shamoozey, is getting into hip-hop and rap!! Tickety-boo
Again, I dont have any set plan yet and creative commons is provided only as an example and potential solution. Its worth taking a look at how creative commons licences are organised to get a better idea of possibilities or potential problems with the updated system here.
The intention in all of this is to simplify things for both those who upload and those who download acapellas. Many people are still under the impression that they can do as they wish even though its clearly stated across the site that loops / tracks and acapellas are not provided under the same terms.
Saything that "I understand that it can be frustrating for music producers, but all they have to do is read the description of what the acapella/narration/etc" is all very well and good but the fact is that people dont read what is in front of them.
Having a clear set of licence options should help prevent any confusion and have the added advantage of clearing up the descriptions of acapellas.
Talking about acapella singers, you wont meet a nicer bunch or breed. They lay their hearts on their sleeves by sharing their innner most emothional feelingsthrough song, rap, poems, etc. and run the risk of having been asked if suicide was ever considered. I also feel are being taken to the cleaners by some ruthless music producers, djs and labels, who should be educated on their practices and that all things in life are free (not mine). They dont need glasses, they know damn well what they're doing is wrong!
The majority of Looperman members are nice but some are anti-social and thats why i chose not to be a frequent flying forum contributor.
As regards changing the way acapellas are promoted and introduced on your site, that is your perogitive oh great Shan, but im sure you will do the right thing and be fair to all concerned, especially acapella contributors.
I must also congratulate you on a well-run site. Lets do coffee sometime! Shoot da breeze! Tally ho ol boy!
Cheers!His Coolness - Shamoozey
My sincerest apologies. I had skimmed through the site late last night before bed and happened to glimpse the wrong part and assumed it turned everything into public domain. I was mistaken in this regard.
In fact, after looking into it more this morning I strongly support the CC option so that I can have an enforceable timestamp to fall back on whenever I encounter un-credited/stolen vocal content. Having CC would definitely encourage vocalists like myself to make more acapellas.
My apologies again. I look forward to the updates!
I like the creative commons idea.
I also wonder if it's possible to have a "no download" option for artists in the acapella section, just like you have for the tracks section.
If this option is already available, my apologies in advance.
having a no download option defeats the object of having acapellas there in the first place as the whole point of that section is to offer thing for people to use.
The no downloads is there for tracks as they are not uploaded with the intention of others using them
Okay, thanks for explaining that.
I notice that there are some acapellas that ask people to contact them before commercial use, that's why I asked.
yes, this is why it would help to have clear licence options as I mentioned above so its obvious to anyone downloading what they can and cant do with an acapella.
@BradoSanz I agree I would take mine off as well and move to just doing it through my own site and much other sites. Because that would be unfair for us who are actually making a living off our music. Depending on the way this update goes will be what makes or breaks the site.
and to avoid having to promote have an acapella ranking system so that popular acapellas have a way to continue making impressions and licensing deals
Still looking for input from everyone on this. If you have not yet made your opinion clear then please do so.
So far, in its simplest form the options could be
Would that work for those that already have acapellas listed or would you like other options included too and if so what and why.
@mike0112, part of the problem is with the fact that you have been posting the same acapellas multiple times just to give you exposure. You have some things listed over half a dozen times. This is simply spamming the system for your own benefit.
Hey,I agree with the simple options. They could work well. But I do not agree with the creative commons method, and I think if it does go down that route, many will remove their acapellas, and I think it will not encourage people to upload more.
This way, people can just search for commercial or non commercial acapellas with such ease.
Others than that, it seems the problem is spamming and self-promotion. Perhaps you could make the terms more clear, as some may not understand.
Also would it be possible to implement a follow feature, so that those who usually download acapellas, can follow their favourite artists.
@themusicvii, as I mentioned initially I have always avoided going the creative commons route since its inception.
I would be interested though to hear why anyone either agrees with or disagrees with creative commons and why.
When I release the update there will be better ways to keep informed of your favorite uploaders and plenty more
Simply put Shan, Creative Commons is an additional layer you do not need here. Let us say for example my material is licensed under CC, then I could quite possibly changed the terms of my CC loop status under my Creative Commons(CC) license and there would not be a thing that you could do about it. No matter what terms you suggest or make members agree to here, your authority ends with my CC content owner/creator rights. You cannot replace or superseded my rights under CC as the rightful content owner by way of proxy of some nature. I then can assert my legal rights and challenge you if need be, now imagine lots of others doing the same. As the original content owner it is my right to change the terms of my licenses in some situations but not in all situations. If a successful change does occurs it would have a long lasting negative ripple affect across this site for some members here. Finally if I used a loop licensed here under the CC GPL and create a new song with it and then license my new song under a new CC GPL using that CC loop from here, I could face a challenge from the CC creator of that loop. No one is authorized to re-license their CC works as CC that has CC content from others under a new CC license for their songs without permission first from the CC loop creator, again, this only occurs when you attempt re-license CC material under a new CC license without permission when the licensed was modified by the CC loop creator. Simply put, the entire Creative Commons license thing is a very complicated legal mess in my opinion. It works well when things are going smooth. Uncertainty when things go bad. Truly there is no advantage using CC on this site because CC is not legally compliant in many sovereign governments across the globe.
There are six different CC licenses. Two of the licenses prohibit the sharing of adaptations (BY-ND, BY-NC-ND); three prohibit commercial uses (BY-NC, BY-NC-ND, BY-NC-SA), and two require adaptations be licensed under the same license (BY-SA, BY-NC-SA).Which versions were you considering Shan?
Firstly, this conversation is only about acapellas and as i said there was no decision to to go the creative commons route but good to have the conversation and see what anyone else has to say on the matter. It does seem to work ok for some and has been adopted by other sites. That does not mean though that it works everywhere or is a bullet proof solution.
Simply setting a few options for uploaders to agree to and setting out the terms that they should agree to allows those who wish to download and use the media to easily find what works for them and should they want to go on to use stuff commercially they have a clear route to do so.
I guess my main questions are would the following two options be enough ?
Also, would you suggest any other fields to add to the upload form to help either organise the acapellas or to get across any information that is not already listed so that the description field can return to be used to actually describe the file itself.
First and foremost there should be a bold disclaimer to indemnify Looperman from any possible legal conflicts and make it clear that all uploaders do so of their own volition and "Agree" to the set terms, I see all these concerns about the artist's rights when in reality that's just an expanding bubble of hot air, taking legal action costs real money and plenty of it, after all how many uploaders of acapellas here are in the position to take anyone to court? and if they do it's only worthwhile against someone who can actually pay damages so an apparent violation of someone's precious copyright could in actual fact turn into a bonus (just thinking out loud)....It all just seems like a storm in a teacup, whatever "terms" you finally put in place obviously won't please everyone, have two alternative, free and negotiable.
1 - Free to use both commercial & non-commercial = FREE2 - Free to use non-commercial / commercial licence required = Negotiable
looperman does not licence anything its merely a portal for users to provide their works to others. The one who uploads grants the licence when they click upload and agree to the terms that are set out already. The terms for using this site are clearly stated and have been in place for a very long time.
How people deal with licencing an acapella if they choose to is up to them and is very much external to this site. I dont have any plans or interest in getting involved in anything like that.
The purpose of this thread is about making that process of uploading, categorising, finding and downloading acapellas clearer and simpler for everyone involved.
Yes I totally understand that Shan, however some people won't, don't or can't read the conditions whatever they may be, there's your problem.
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Looper Time : 2022-08-13 10:36:51 | Version l-3110