Transient Terminating Techniques

Posts 1 - 20 of 20
  1. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    I have an issue that I'm sure someone knows how to solve, manuals have not. I use Presonus Studio One 2 Pro.

    Playing bass, you get a waveform with a wicked peak at the beginning of a plucked note. That peak is called a transient. I want to remove the transient at the start of every note to make things smoother with finger style recordings. The transient tends to pop even on lightly played notes.

    Studio One does this, I'm sure. I can detect transients, needed for quantization, but once transients are detected, how can I manipulate that transient?

    If you know how to do this with your software, explaining how you do it may even get me in the right direction on my software.

    Thank you for the time.

    Evan

  2. 998072
    InverSound : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    I've never used Prestonius.. but to get rid of pops and clicks on midi notes, you can play with velocity, if you're talking audio clips instead of midi clips, then you can create fades on each clip at the start, I use Ableton and it lets you do this automatically whenever you split a clip anywhere, if you have a sampler plugin, then you could create samples of each clip and in the sampler there will be an attack, decay, release setting somewhere, this is where you create a slower attack to ge rid of the pop at the start on each clip. Also when your recording, you could play with the gate settings that you are recording with, if you have a gate plugin, use the gate so it only opens when a certain decibel level happens, or use a flip to make the opposite of this, so only when the decibels are LOWER than a certain threshold then it will pick up the audio signal/

  3. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Thank you for the feedback.

    I'm recording audio tracks, I should have been more clear.

    It sounds like the best option you are talking about is cutting the track before each transient and doing a quick fade-in on each note. I see how that would work, but it seems too time consuming on parts with 60 or 80 notes.

    Since the software finds and identifies the transients in a recorded audio track, I was hoping that there is a function that would do a swell/gate effect to the transient itself. Once transients are detected, there should be more I can do with them besides quantize.

    Thank you for the help!

    Evan

  4. 631823
    Mahloo13 : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    There are tools that are designed for such purposes, a compressor for example or a transient designer (SPL, Sonnox Oxford to name a couple). Both compressors and transient designer can help you achieve that sound you are looking for. Also a bit of low pass filtering and some cuts in the 1khz area might help you dull the attack a bit.

  5. 998072
    InverSound : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    imo you shouold be using midi to make basslines using soft synth and midi notes, you can change everything very easily regarding attack decay etc and you have no pops

    I'd have to see the software prolly. But tecnically, there is no silence in between your notes, it's always strings vibrating...yyou need to transform your audio clip into perfect transients with silence at the start of each note, there must be a setting where you can program in a bit of silence or have a slower attack to each transient,

    but personally, if I was making basslines I would just be using a synth keyboard and making basslines with that.

    Use a patch from some soft synth that has a bas guitar if you really want bass guitar sound, plus this way you can use midi, and MIDI is way more versatile than audio for what your trying to do, you should be using midi to make your basslines, this is my final recommendation lol

    audio clips have their purpose in DAWs and so do MIDI clips, they both are useful for different things

    basically the only reason I would ever want to record a bass guitar through the air would be if aI had an amazing studio setup to make it worthwhile and it would have to be a world-renowned bass guitarist who you could never perfeectly imitate with midi

  6. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    @ Mahloo13

    I have finagled compressors out the wazzoo, but transient designers I have never hears of. I will look into that. Thank you kind sir.

    @ mistermerlin

    You are hurting my heart when you say to just use fake bass guitar. I'm a bit of a purist, and my music is driven by the bass guitar out front.

    I believe MIDI should be a minimal part of a real instrument based track. Backing piano, strings or percussion.

    My problem is not that I'm creating audio files, it is in my ability to manipulate those files. I wont be abandoning ship any time soon because of a few pops.

    I appreciate your feedback and your detailed explanation, I truly do, but in my opinion, people should play their music with their hands, not a mouse or trigger. When the power goes out, producers can't make music, but musicians can.

    Thanks again.

    Evan

  7. 602494
    Nightfallproducer : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    do you play your bass with your amp live without any popping accouring? if so just check your levels on recording and record at a low level, then when in your DAW use the tools inside to bring bass levels, EQ and overall sound up to the standard your looking for.

    In mistermerlin's defence I don't think he's totally wrong and I dont think he meant replace your audio file with a pure midi plugin, but manipulate a midi controller to act with the audio, (ie create a sample bass with the audio and place as separate notes or even pick the best note and pitch that note to create others (NN-XT sampler in reason can do this). this will give you a lot more control but the first recording has to be of a certain standard to begin with and because the first note wont stretch just pitch, when you travel too far away from the main key, it will start to go out of tune.

    So now back to the audio, the DAW your using does not have options for manipulating transients but finding them, so unfortunately you have to do some work to make it the way you want, ie find a transient edit it and move to the next, even if you have to do 60-80 notes or whatever it just has to be done.

    Another way is to edit the audio out of your DAW using something like soundforge and asking soundforge to mark the transient areas, then goto each marker and fix, the bonus with soundforge for me is a repeat process quick key (ctrl-y) this will repeat the last process made on a piece of audio and therefor if I change the attack (fade in) I can simply highlight next to the marker and press CTRL-Y, then the next marker and press CTRL-Y and so on until it's done.

    this also will give you the opportunity to normalize the audio, eq it and so on until you get the desired effect.

    sorry that there's not much for the DAW your using, but you can contact them and ask them firstly if they have a process for this or if possible can they put one in the update.

    Im also fed up with Producer and musician relationships, im sure anyone can at any point can learn to play an instrument and also learn how to use production software, so don't count any body out when the electricity goes out, plus if the electricity did go out, music would be the last thing on my mind, I think warmth and having food is a little bit more important. ps i'm both a musician and producer.

    peace x

  8. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    That is some helpful feedback Nightfallproducer. My software detects transients and places a marker, even cuts if I want. Was hoping for an option to do them all at once. Thank you for your helpful advice!

    I have a hard time with the thought of turning bass guitar hits into something programmable. Defeats my purpose, but I will look into what I can do once transients are detected. your advice sounds faster if there is a way to repeat last action through shortkeys.

    I don't mean to bash producers, though I have many times inadvertently, I just want quality and as close to perfection strait off the hands without any programing. I feel it means more when it is played right by the musician, rather than chopped up and assembled. But the cleaning up of each note may be the closest I come to altered basslines.

    Thanks again for all the help, and respecting my pragmatism!

    Evan

  9. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    When the electricity goes out, you are supposed to make shadow puppets by candlelight. It's only right.

    Evan

  10. 602494
    Nightfallproducer : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    I know where you coming from, like when I record a band I want each musician to perform their part to best they can, most bands Iv'e worked with are very tight playing bands, so don't even need to record to a click with some of them, but at the end of it I always end up doing something to a note or sequences of notes. I don't know why but in a studio some musicians play differently to when they play live, I think it's something to do with your surroundings whilst recording (im sure there's books on the mentality of musicians in a pressure envoirnment or whatever).

    and your right it'd still be warmth and food for me but then it would most definitely be shadow puppets lolz.

    ps if ya get stuck with anything Private message me and send me some audio and i'll see what I can do, I have a backlog of 12 tracks to complete but im pretty random with the time I spend on them, so I might have time to help ya.

    Peace x

  11. 951439
    Evisma : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    I work alone, so I have to have a click

    I know what you mean about playing live or in the studio. Playing live has the fun, spontaneous effect, where as recording you are going for accuracy and polished lines.

    Thanks again!

    Evan

    And I don't use my amp, since you asked, though it's a nice GK rb1001 and 4x10 neo cab. Not a good room for mic'ing it. Sounds like a choir of whoopie cushions.

  12. 631823
    Mahloo13 : Mon 25th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    You should try multiple compressors, like 2 for example where one has a slow attack and medium release and the second with fast attack. It's all in the settings and the playing style. Not all basses are good for certain tasks and maybe the resonance of yours just enhances the attack feel.

    As a last resort you could edit each note manually but in a 3 minute song there might be plenty of notes for you to edit and a transient designer or compressor does just that for you but automatically. Don't give up on them...it might be exactly what you need. As a tip...just in case you have tye t racks fairchild emulation or the waves/UAD ones you could use one of them and do around 7-10dB's of reduction on the program 1 or 3 depending on the tempo, it usually controls the bass really well and rounds it off nicely. In case you lose some low end you can follow it with an eq boosting some low end with a really wide Q. If you have a pultec emulation use that and boost around 60 or lower and attenuate about 2 dB's ..try it just for the sake of it and I tell you that you won't look back.

  13. 951439
    Evisma : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Thank you Mahloo13, that is much more the approach I would like to take. I will probably make a template in my DAW with those settings you mentioned and use it for finger style recordings. My pedal is running 2 compressors already, but I will play with them a little more so they work together. The one thing my pedal lacks is a swell effect, used to have it on a Digitech RP3, loved it.

    Thanks again!

    Evan

  14. 631823
    Mahloo13 : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Definitelly experiment with the settings. Especially attack and release on the compressors. You could eventually remove the comp pedals you have in your chain cause they are not always good when recording and you have better tools available. I for one try not to use comp pedals when recording especially if it's a DI signal. I find it just make everything sound plucky and picky if that's a good way of describing the sound. If it's a heavy instrumentation song where the bass needs to poke through then the sound might benefit from the aggresive comp pedal sound.

    Hope this is helpfull!

  15. 111346
    Planetjazzbass : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    I play bass exclusively fingerstyle and never have a problem and I'm wondering what the issue is your having,sure transients exist but they do with any recorded instrument..you can manually lessen the volume swell but why would you unless your recording levels are too high..the trouble with using compressors,gates etc post production to the extent where it significantly changes the sound you end up with a diminished sample instead of a dynamic rich tone....I'm taking a swing in the dark here because I have absolutely no clue as to what equipment your using but the issue sounds like it's before your DAW...what's your setup,bass/signal chain/interface?

  16. 848132
    mrwolf14 : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Hi MrEvisma,
    I fully second PJB: you need to investigate your problem "before" the DAW.
    The way you "pluck" the strings with your fingers has a huge impact on your sound (did I say huge? I mean really huge!)
    Just as an example, when I started "popping" back in the 80s I had to use a pedal to lower the volume of the popped parts (too loud compared to the rest) ... now, almost 30 years later, with some basses I am on the other side: the slap-pop is quieter than the rest. And the only transient problems I have is with "fake" harmonics.

    Does this help you?
    Not directly, but the bottom line is "study your sound" and try to influence it at any level.

    Start with the unplugged bass: does it sound good? (probably yes).
    The try to record something "directly", with no whatsoever effect in the middle, just your "pure" finger-plucked bass sound.
    If you feel like, then upload it somewhere and someone can try to listen to it (I would do it just out of curiosity, not that I am such a good judge, but I am curious by nature).

    That said, good luck for the search of the perfect bass sound!
    With the picked one you are already at a really good level!
    Ciao, Domenico

    PS: DISCLAIMER!
    This post does not imply by any mean that MrWolf is a good bass player.
    He is in fact only a mediocre one.
    So please do not interpret his will to help as the manifestation of a "superiority complex": he knows his limits very well ;-)

  17. 588276
    StaticNomad : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Sorry - first point is not helpful at all but I was laughing when reading the suggestion to Evisma that he shouldn't bother with actual bass guitar - just use synths!

    It's his main, main, main instrument!

    And he plays it very well.

    A bit like saying Jimi Henrix shouldn't have bothered with the guitar but just gone with a woodblock!

    OK, not an exact analogy but it'll do.

    To attempt to be more serious and helpful, I'm not sure why you're getting all these transients. To be honest, I haven't noticed it in the many tracks I've listened to of yours. Please point out some recorded examples.

    Obviously I'm not saying you're "wrong" but what you're talking about sounds really bad so I'm surprised I've missed it.

    Basically, you shouldn't need to do transient correction of just a decent bass tone for every note. What a hassle!

    For now, I agree that the problem probably is pre-DAW.

  18. 600461
    visionarysoundsystem : Tue 26th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Evi bit leftfield here but is it your bass that is causing the problems? Are your tone & volume pots set in such a way to cause the peaks? Maybe your action or strings? I only ask as once upon a time I had a bass that sounded OK live but horrible when recorded and it was quickly spotted and sorted out by a guitar guru dude who tweaked the action, set the pots (and amp) and changed a string.
    To misquote MrWolf (and with a huge thanx to him) -
    PS: DISCLAIMER!
    This post does not imply by any mean that VisionarySoundSystem is a good bass player.
    He is in fact only a mediocre one.
    So please do not interpret his will to help as the manifestation of a "superiority complex": he knows his limits very well ;-)

  19. 951439
    Evisma : Wed 27th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    Wow, I have a lot to catch up on.

    @ Planetjazzbass
    I know nothing about compressors, which is a sin as a bass player, I know. Pre-DAW is surely the problem. My chain is an Ibanez SR600 into a Line 6 Bass PODxt Live. Here it gets an enormous treatment. Amp modeling, SWR SM500 head, no cab. A single dial compressor set at half,(vague I know), a modeled SansAmp Overdrive, a deluxe chorus and a digital delay. A light crossover and 10 percent D.I. feed. All that processing from the pedal, and it goes to a PreSonus AudioBox 22vsl, and I use Studio One 2.6 Pro.

    @ Mrwolf14
    The bass sounds excellent unplugged, I'm sure it will be a problem in my fingerstlye and compression. I should be able to find a sweet spot in there.

    @ StaticNomad
    I'm glad the laugh was shared here.
    I like the analogy of John Holmes being told to go draw Hentai because he has a pimple on his ass and it's not good for the camera. John was just wondering how to get rid of the pimple!
    But seriously, I have only started noticing transient issues since I started making loops for upload. My tracks may have a few, but nothing problematic.
    After reading the advice here, I think one thing it could be is when I have a compressor in the chain, it works great when I'm playing, but the first note after a pause usually has a wicked transient, like a limiter with a 30ms delay.

    @ visionarysoundsystem
    My bass is set up very well. Intonation is spot on, not a buzz on the board, dual humbuckers and an active three band EQ with a mid frequency toggle that lets my bass's mid EQ knob be controlling either hi-mids or low-mids. Battery is no problem, (though it is a pain to remove a spent battery without destroying the cheap-ass connector), and I use Elixer strings, best bass strings I have found, bar none.
    Basically, the bass itself is in great shape, the problem lies in the user and his processing ignorance.
    I do have an Epiphone P-Bass that is a total Fender rip-off, and it is the beater. Broken tone pot, nut broken just outside the G string. The nastiest set of split single coils ever and an eternal crackle in the input. This bass only sits, battle scarred, and thinks about what it has done, and wishes for a better tomorrow.

    @ Fellow Loopers
    Thank you all for the help you have give me here and I will take every word to heart,.... especially about no longer playing an instrument. THANKS!

    Evan

  20. 831304
    DubTek : Thu 28th Nov 2013 : 8 years ago

    "A bit like saying Jimi Henrix shouldn't have bothered with the guitar but just gone with a woodblock!"

    i have been on looperman for a little over a year .... best line i have heard.

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