Posted in : Forum : Song Writing, Arranging, Singing, Music Theory
Discuss anything related to writing and arranging music, singing, playing instruments, music theory, styles or techniques. This is not about software, hardware, mixing or mastering issues.
Copyright © 2023
Looper Time : 2023-05-30 09:28:03 | Version l-3110
Fellow Loopermen and Looperwomen,
Why is it so hard for some of you (majority) to stay on beat? It's usually the ones who have no excuses, like the producers. Let's break it down.
The beats per minute is a measurement of time in relation to how notes fall within the measure. Example:
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + (1)
Officially, upon falling upon beat (1) again, 2 seconds will have elapsed.
240/(bpm) = time elapsed (seconds)
This is an equation I have made for such situations.
240/120(bpm) = 2(seconds)
So. 2 seconds.
240/90(bpm) = 2.67(seconds)
240/160(bpm) = 1.5(seconds)
So. If you know that you need to put a drop at the start of measure seventeen, simply multiply the seconds times the previous measures.
16 X 2 = 32 seconds in.
So, at 32 seconds, measure 17 starts.
I hope some of this helps you guys, and if there's anything else you want to know or add, just let me know!
Sam lets face it mate..a lot of the people your alluding to (not all)have virtually no musical training apart from one day waking up and declaring their a producer,so it's no wonder many have an underdeveloped sense of timing...music lessons should always come before swag...(somebody had to second the motion!)lol
I couldn't agree with you more...
I try to take into consideration the amount of experience someone may have who is working with my vocals. I don't want to discourage beginners, but sometimes I can't even finish the track because I can't get past timing issues. :/
Sam, although I agree in principle with what you are saying, I don't think that this is the place to say it. For one thing, I think your equation would have gone way over the heads of many, who don't have a degree in music theory and even if it didn't, trying to put it into practice when being creative is not easy. What happened to the good old metronome? In my opinion timing is instinctive and comes naturally, we all have it, but some need to work harder to develop it. We all have to start somewhere when learning our craft and many of the tracks I've seen here ask for members opinions or advice. So the place to give advice and criticism, should surely be in the track comments. Perhaps if we gave honest feedback instead of trying so hard not to offend, it might be more constructive. I don't mean getting all Simon Cowell either!
This site may be useful to those having timing issues: http://www.metronomeonline.com/
@Darkreine: What I'm guessing is that he's talking about producers that use DAWs, there's no excuse to not be in time. Especially when they practically show you what the BPM is in the software but they don't post it in the upload.
Unless you are a trained musician and have spent many many hours with the NOME practicing the timings such as simple time 4/4 3/4 2/4 or Compound time 9/8 12/8 etc and you know how many beats are in a measure and you know the notes value then it might not come too easy. Even now I still use the Nome in my DAW or my clockwork NOME because there is always a piece of music or a beat that catches you out and I think I am excellent at timing. However, most people hate the nome and will avoid it if they can. I hate the NOME but it is a necessary tool.
If my music is out of time,then i've only got my novice producing to blame,as im self taught,so that may include timing issues,not that i think my music is that good anyway.!
I just make music for Enjoyment and have no desire to class myself as Pro.!
But im my defence, i just make what i like the sound for my own personal pleasure,then i just put up on looperman free of charge my tracks,and if just one person likes it for the simple format that my music is then im blown away.
I make music just as a happy hobby and i seek no fame or fortune,.....just enjoyment!.
I just put sounds on lines and change after the count of 4 lol
I created some metronome loops a while back. You can find them here:
They are 4/4 time and range from 60bpm to 140bpm.
Nicely said Billy.
This is not a pro site for you to sell your creation, just a place where you can make music and share it, if people like it good, if not......
If I was still gigging maybe I'd worry about it, but if it sounds OK then maybe it is. It never stopped The Cure from producing offbeat material!!
Lets not forget those who exercise (boldly) their right to make muzic however they want, in time, off time, same key, different key.
When commenting, at times, I've been told the off timing was exactly what they were going for.
As a side note, @BunnieRabbit, I'm with you that some tracks (with vocals) I've found hard to enjoy, because it's not my style or preference, at the same time I have become humbled that it is the creator's style, so I respect that.
Muzically, I suppose there is really no reason to be "off beat", as there is a metronome. Quantize as well, yes?
@SamAndHisGuitar, after a while you just let some things be what they are. Besides, the ones who really should be reading this thread, probably will never even see it :-).
Muzical day All!
Very true Patricia, however, I am referencing those who don't do it intentionally. If you listen to 'Releasing The Albatross' you can definitely hear odd-meter tuplets that coincide with the music itself. That's one matter. However, there are many tracks that have completely derailed the concept of time signatures. Like. Some people are using 124 BPM samples on 118 BPM samples. It just doesn't work towards any goal.
"completely derailed the concept of time signatures."
I only started producing music a year ago and I am surprised that other's who have been doing it way longer then me have this problem. If you listen to a song you made and it's off-beat and you think "sounds fine!" then you just shouldn't be a producer. I've come to the conclusion that the people who do this are probably people who've gone and downloaded and compiled loops without paying any attention to the tempo.
Another thing too is that I hear so many songs where the vocals are so out of time that I have to cringe. Usually most acapella have a slight pause at the start which means you have to either cut that part out or start the sample a little early in order to make the first word land on a 'kick'. A good example of this is 'Desire' by Steklo. A lot of people use that sample and if you have then you'll know what i'm talking about.
I don't know. I thought this was common sense.
Is this just for producers? Or is a tip rappers and singers too? I posted a thread about how to stay on beat(I was asking not giving advice). They said use a metronome. But if you're a rapper have your own style of flow, do you have to change your flow just so you can stay on beat?
if its about loops and not vocals then people need to be looking at timestretching
Not sure what timestretching means but if it means what I think it means than there is an easy and logical way to get around that.
Obviously loops can be fractions of a second too long or short which means if you play a loop over and over it will eventual no longer match the beat.
All you have to do to avoid this is re-add the loop every now and then. So for example, have the loop run for an entire phrase (making sure it matches the beat), then once that phrase is over add a copy of the same loop to your track, and then align it with the beats in the next phrase. Then you continue this for the rest of the song.
And to RapperCAS: If your 'flow' doesn't match the beat, you can simply change the beat rather than the lyrics. It only makes sense to make music that has the same flow as the vocals. If you send me a rap sample of yours I could even whip up a quick beat for you that matches it so you can then use it as a guide for any future songs.
the whole idea of a loop is that it sits on the grid and loops at the tempo it was uploaded at. The same goes for acapellas, I tell people to add a bar of clicks at the start to allow others to line the vocal up with their tracks.
if a loop goes out of time then it was either not made properly in the first place or you are not using it properly in your DAW
if a loop is not the same tempo as your track then you can time stretch the loop to the new tempo and then use it normally.
These are fundamental and basic ideas behind using loops in your tracks
40A well said!! Correct me if I"m wrong but doesn't reaper have a time stretch option where you can shrink or stretch your loop to the bpm needed? I also believe the word for intentionally being off beat (but not out of time) is syncopation.
That's a problem for me. theHumps said his vocal sounded like he'd had too much NyQuil after I got thru with it. That comment stuck. As did a review I received f a piano piece where the person said, in effect I didn't know what I was doing and fix or else erase it and I deleted the whole thing and didn't use piano loops for a long time, but came back as used short clips where clashes of bpm wouldn't be so obvious. I never look at the bpm of loops, I just listen to how they sound. As a klutz I use some off-beat for effect on purpose. I have had no training whatsoever and admit to a tin ear, ignorance of bpm, pitch and all the other finer points of producing, mixing, etc. I march to my own beat and in most cases I'm outa step. Thank you for your time, Vig aka Vic
Some interesting points here. Number one as Shan mentioned Loops are set up so they can be timestretched to fit many BPM's, that is the actual pupose of an Acidized type loop. All be it close, as a 70 bpm loop will sound odd if it's stretched to 180 bpm no matter how it is filtered and handled.
Sam's instruction will be valuable for a lot of persons new to using acidized type loops. However Sam you must understand there are many here still mastering the process of timestretching in software and not to be critical by saying the majority of people don't have a handle on it. My apologies but I thought your approach, however helpful was also quite arrogant. You don't need to be. I realize by reading your profile and listening to some of your music that you yourself have a bit to learn about production. I suggest you do as most guitar player must do and have big ears and stay humble. That is what makes a great musician, producer.
the best quote on this comes from 40A
@ViralSilenc3 i agree with you.No need to get all technical about what one should do to stay on beat.Failure to tell whether something is off beat or not does render you a no-producer.its all just common sense.
Well.. ive been a "contemporary" producer all my life.. I never personally seek perfection in my tunes, rather to embrace the oddity and offbeet loops and sound and try to make the music more "alive"...
for me, it gets extremly booring to listen to a tune that you can predict the outcome off the next 8 beats.. ".. aaaaand hihat.. yes.. aaaand drop... yes.. aaaaand chorus.. yes.. aaaaand crescendo.. told you.. Aaaaaand silent hihat again.. yes. aaaaaand another drop.. yes.." and so forth..
The offbeat and sounds that doesnt follow a specific pattern really intruiges me instead, and makes the tune itself far more interesting..